Building and growing a business takes a strong sales effort and a lot of hard work. In the world of Technology and Channel sales, it's no different. Today's conversation is with Neal Stanton and successful entrepreneur who has built his own companies along with ones for investors, founders, and others.
It's a gloves-off, real conversation about walking close to the edge of failure, pressures, and business cycles that it rakes to be successful.
Building and growing a business takes a strong sales effort and a lot of hard work. In the world of Technology and Channel sales, it's no different. Today's conversation is with Neal Stanton and successful entrepreneur who has built his own companies along with ones for investors, founders, and others.
It's a gloves-off, real conversation about walking close to the edge of failure, pressures, and business cycles that it rakes to be successful.
Okay, thanks for listening to bow ties in business. I'm your host Tim Kubiak. And today, we're joined by Neil standing. And we are going to talk about what it takes to build and scale businesses. So Neil's worked in and around high tech for years. He's been a personal friend for over 25 years now. Thanks for being here.
Neal Stanton:Now, thanks for having me, Tim. And it's kind of scary when you say 25 years, because I don't feel like I'm any older than 30. So we must remember we were five. I would say
Tim Kubiak:we started hustling gear in preschool. Absolutely.
Neal Stanton:I think you're right about that.
Tim Kubiak:So we both came out of basically the aftermarket telecom business. Is that a fair assessment?
Neal Stanton:Yeah, back in the days are rip and roar. If you remember prior, it was really prior to internet. So it was all relationship driven. But yeah, that's why we started I think us CCA and I was at fall next
Tim Kubiak:year word Phonak. That was at CCA. Yeah.
Neal Stanton:Wow, it still seems like yesterday.
Tim Kubiak:It does. It does. So since then, you've started a whole bunch of companies, including an integrator or var in that voice space. So, you know, I thought we could start a lot of our listeners are small business owners. And you started with a couple of partners basically in a small space. Is that the best way to put it?
Neal Stanton:Yeah, I've actually a couple of them. Remember whose flagship even before consult edge. But yeah, I was in UC, God, I guess, after leaving phone x, and maybe just even touch on that a little bit. It was one of those cases where you start to do the math, you're paid on straight commission, and you say, Well, I get 25% of the profit. If I start my own company and do one quarter of the business, I make the same money. So it was a, you know, pretty, pretty easy leap at the time. But yeah, it was myself and Frank, if you remember, Frank, I remember the first company.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, one of the things that is interesting is a lot of people when we talk on the show, is they've transitioned careers. And in many ways, you're the perfect example of that, right? You went from your selling to your own business, to you stay in technology. But you continue to evolve. And one of the things that I think is scariest for me personally, as you look back, and you see some guys that are still essentially in the same place, doing the same job, hoping to hold on for five more years, you've taken a different path. What led you there?
Neal Stanton:Well, I think what you just said is part of that when you you look back now and you see the same people not just again, that same place, but literally same company complaining about the same things that complained about 20 years ago, I didn't want that to be me, my my progression had always been driven by, you know, sort of like a shark, you always want to keep swimming, right? So I was always looking at, you know, what's the next step. And to be fair, some of it happened by accident, you just kind of fall into it. But I think, you know, you say accident, but you got to be smart enough to take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you. So I went from literally, you know, telecom startups to going to work for a larger company leaving to start another company, and then getting into a network of private equity. And a couple people I knew that was sat on a lot of boards. And, you know, last several years is really been more around that, you know, let's call it early stage or turnaround type business, but you know, being put in by other people other than me having to go ahead and establish it. So you kind of get that that same benefit without all of that upfront. But yeah, it's definitely been a progression.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. And so you've gone from telecom to security essentially right? Well,
Neal Stanton:yeah telecom the security now then it's a software back to security and now software again, yep.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, so that's one of the things I think, you know, you I woke up one day and I looked around and all my friends were executives or business owners. I don't know if you had that moment. But I'm like yeah, those of us that are still standing so to speak that that's where we've all ended up
Unknown:right but there
Neal Stanton:was a stage if you remember AXA was after Bradford we had gone through you know it wasn't it was a rough year was an interesting year because the company ended up eventually being sold to Ford Annette you know great organization great people it was it was a lot It was a lot of you know every day was it we working on financing What are we going to do right? how's this gonna work? You know, great customers the rest but you know, after that I decided to go carry the bag again. So if you remember I actually went so yes, all the All my friends are still senior execs running companies and I literally decided that I'm just gonna go and spend some time I'll find the right company. I want to establish myself in a territory just go make some money and be left alone for a while. You should have seen the face on on you know when I was interviewing him again. Well, network driven so wasn't you know, hitting awana ads or anybody Number one it is anymore but going through the the the job listing, there's going to people I knew that had opportunities, we're looking for somebody my experience, but explaining to them that so let me understand is you're going from, you know, a global head of sales role to wanting to carry a bag. Why? And the answer was simple. I just want to be left alone make some money for a while. But yeah, it, it didn't take long to realize that and actually use the head of sales for the company made a comment, john Brandis just said one day goes up, Neil, you know, you're kind of selfish, when it's all said and done, because you're really selfish, because you really, you're good at your job, you're good at what you do. But you're probably gonna be better when you're making other people better as well. And he goes, so, hey, kudos to him because he could make money. But I think you're missing the calling. And that's that it's true. I can, I don't think I want to go back to doing individual, at least not short term. And I'm sure you see the same thing, you know, taking yourself and what you know, and being able to help others do that. That's something that you know, once you get to that point, have that skill. You don't want to lose it again. You want to stay there.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's funny, because I always look, and I've had this conversation with coaches and friends and partners and everything, and it is, I am not the guy, I would much rather help 12 people be successful at this point. Yeah, and not have a life, then make the same money and just carry the bag?
Neal Stanton:Well, I don't know whether or not having a life mate. But you know, there's something to be said for that. You know, I interesting, we just had this conversation a couple of weeks ago, a few of our guys were asking us for something. And they were saying, Well, you know, we have to go do that as a timeout. I said, What do you mean, we so I just to kind of set it to I'm in a unique situation with our company that I am still running the global sales team, but I'm also co CEO. So I basically get to scream at myself every month when we went away. The numbers are but you know, the conversation was around something that had to be done. And I said, guys, you're missing the point. And I said, you know, you're reporting to me with all this information. But But I worked for you all the things that you're talking about right now that you need, I have to clear the roadblocks for you. So this is not a case of you coming, you know, as you know, I can't get it done. It helped me help you. So it kind of goes back to that to where you're talking about being able to teach and learn. And I like that better. It's one of the reasons I said before I gravitated to startups and turnarounds or late stage, you shouldn't just a turn around late stage as well, because they need something. Yeah, I make it really clear with the people I work with, we get this thing running smooth. And it's great. I'm not you guy. Long term. I'm just not. And it's not that I don't want to stay, you'll be better served with the caretaker until you need something strategic. And we saw that with consult edge. I started the company, right? You know, I say and if you remember, I would say the first three years, which were the growth years, the hardest years. Oh my god, I loved it. I loved every second of it. I loved every when I loved every hire. I mean, it was you know, every new deal that we made with a vendor was fantastic. Then I had a great management team in place. We hit steady state. I was those a couple for me personally, there were no great years financially were those but rough years in terms of just feeling like you were still making the difference that you could then we had 2008 was what the requirement, the mortgage crisis hidden. We had to make changes and do things differently. And it's like, Oh, thank God, I'm here, because this is what I'm good at. So we were really able to help maneuver the business. But, you know, that's the fun part. And I know you're like that as well, you like to tinker and drive and make change.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, I've spent a lot of money in therapy to learn that I should never run anything that works. I should only run broken and growing things. Because otherwise I will break it to rebuild it.
Neal Stanton:And that's not always a bad thing, either. I mean, there's things that we don't look, I'll look at where we are now at ramp. So myself and Anthony, my co CEO, who's also CFO, we basically change this company, we ramp revamp all the products, right, we change that we go to market, we've built up our relationships, you know, our key vendors, Microsoft, we've gotten much deeper with them. And we actually built the product around what they were asking for. So we're really seeing the benefits of it now with all the customers as they start to return office, you know, maybe real quick just saw what we do. I think you know, everybody else may not. But what we do is provide software that helps companies are doing large streaming events reduce the bandwidth impact. So when you think about what that means it's significant. If you're not careful, and you start running these no big teams events or any other type of streaming media event, you can quickly crush the bandwidth and bring down all the other applications as well. So we alleviate that anywhere is up to 99.9%. So think about that in terms of you know, all the productivity. That's what we do. But you know, in order to do that, which was really rough during COVID because nobody was in the office. Nope, no bandwidth impact. For us. It was an opportunity to take a call on a breath, look at the products and really set it up to come out. Out of this are moving into this hybrid workplace, you know, we're poised to lead the industry. So, you know, a lot of that to it was that break it all that tinkering or maybe the rejigging of the product? I love that. I mean, you know, while it was still a little bit rough on the business, it was a blast. And now we're seeing the benefit.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, it is the most fun, right in the you hear stories about the gamblers or the traders, or everybody who gets that high from doing that one amazing deal. And in short, we've built a career of rebuilding things, because we get that high from it. You know,
Neal Stanton:I've never really thought about it that way. But it is true. It's a feeling that, and I'm glad you're talking to entrepreneurs, you know, you're if you're an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur or not, because of that feeling, if you don't have that addiction to that feeling, I'm telling you, it isn't for you, you're gonna have a hard time because, you know, I talked earlier about celebrating those wins, those wins in the beginning are so celebrated, because they are seldom and and there, they take a long time to get that momentum. You know, it's not as they say, it's not for the faint of heart, but I couldn't have it any other way. I rather. And I noticed sounds kind of odd. But I enjoyed suffering through those first six months, like I said, then then doing a steady state deal. Because, you know, what am I contributing? I know, I know, I'm still contributing, but I don't feel like I'm making the same impact or difference that you do early stage.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. And that's why I sit on startups. And I, you know, I sit on boards that do other things. It's not because it's making me rich, right? It's because it feeds that part of you. Yeah, yeah, no,
Neal Stanton:I agree, even some mentoring. So I actually have been working with kids coming out of college, I've done a few stints of helping them. But really interesting, I'm helping a company right now that works in the sap world that will talk with their head of sales a couple of times a week, and he's an old friend. And we'll, we'll go through some strategy sessions and things that they can do to, you know, reach out to the market to keep the company even, interestingly enough, at some of the dynamics, having not been in a partnership before or a having, having other people that have, say in the business. It's the mental aspect, you have to learn to sometimes Shut up. You have to learn when to sit back when allow other people to fail, even though you know, because that's really the internet's sometimes the only way people learn. So you have to figure that piece out. But get to that point. Yeah, I mean, I'm still looking to get some more formal boards and things like that, just because of that, I enjoy that piece of it. So that that goes back to you said earlier, it's the the education, the training, it's, it's being helpful. I mean, you know, how many more years do you want to do this? Right? So you want to be as helpful as you can for as long as you can. And I know, I'll go back to consulting at some point from a full time, but not yet. Not yet. I still enjoy this.
Tim Kubiak:And it's literally why I've held my holding company was to continue to be able to do that. Do some consulting non competitive and things like that? Because it's just part of keeping the game sharp.
Neal Stanton:Oh, definitely. And Funny enough, I'll go back. This is about 18 years ago, 1518 years ago. So I had a couple of mentors that I worked with been a regular basis, you know, one being Rob Scott, obviously, you know, a, he's, I would say, I can uncle's, I still like your father at age, we'd be angry, but, you know, has been such an influence on me, because he's always given advice. And I've actually worked for him. He's on our board here at that ramp. But it was also Kent Spafford, and I remember having dinner at Camp one night, and we were talking about just just what we're seeing in consulting some of the issues I was having going through, and he was the CEO at the time of one quart medical. And you know, we're kind of just running through some ideas. I said, Ken, why do you do this? I'm just curious. I mean, other than we get along really well, you're a great guy, you know, why what do you do this, because we get together for dinners as often as we could. And he goes, because I learned as much from you, as you do from me. And I was a 30 year old guy. And Ken had been, you know, senior leader, and for how long? I was kind of shocked to hear that, now that I am a bit older and more. It's true. You know, we look at things differently. We've been doing this a long time. There's there's kids that actually just have kids, there are people in other organizations that have different points of view. So I find when we're doing these types of discussions, I pick up as much or more than they do, or at least that's how I feel about coming out of it. I'm sure you see the same thing.
Tim Kubiak:Absolutely. I've watched young people walk into businesses and go, Oh, this and you're like, wow, I never would have looked at it that way. That's really, right. Yeah, absolutely. And
Neal Stanton:we talked about we know women in businesses, then the big push and I don't mean that it should never have to have been a push but if you think about all these thoughts about you know, the way the mind thinks the way people work differently. When I first heard that I was kind of like, to me that was common sense. I know that we don't always think alike. It's a different point of view. So I'm shocked that it took some kind of a movement for people to wake up and realize that men, women doesn't matter. He's got different opinions and thoughts. I've always surrounded myself with the right people, regardless of all of that. But again, kind of going to where we work, you try to be as diverse as you can, too. So that's been another, I would say, that's something where I've evolved. I mean, I really actually look for the perspective, more now than I did. I'm sure you getting that? Probably Tim. And same thing, you're, you're finding more opinions. So it's not just one kind of go with that. It's not just kids. It could be anything. You know, it's even geographical. You know, you talk to Europe. I was constantly on the phone with, you know, APAC and EMEA, they look at things very different than we do here in the US.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, they do. You know, and it's funny talking about Europe, I was on the phone with a friend of mine. It's a Brit. Right? And they're like, well, you just do this. It's really simple. Like, you can't do that in America. Right? You can't just unplug for a month. That's not our always work. You must be talking about August, when the whole contract started about the fact that I work well in the pub time. But yeah, August is that is was the follow on topic. Yeah. I
Neal Stanton:mean, this morning, I was on with Italy. And that's where we were talking about, you know, ferragosto. Everybody's gonna be off for August. And I said, that's good time to come visit. Like Seth. I don't know, if you can you fly there yet? I have no idea.
Tim Kubiak:why they're they cannot fly here.
Neal Stanton:Okay, but can you come back without quarantining? Or do I have to quarantine when I'm there?
Tim Kubiak:So you may have to, so you may have to test to come back. But yeah, so it's really interesting that talking about global travel in this world, like we can't, we can go pretty much anywhere now. But no one can come here. Unless you get unless you have an executive or a investors visa,
Neal Stanton:or lead investor at ramp is Canadian claims is I guess, a dual citizen. So he goes back and forth between out of Boston. But I can say he's required to quarantine when it comes back in. And if you're not Canadian, I mean, good luck getting
Tim Kubiak:in. Yeah, you can't it literally I have an uncle who's lived six months a year in Quebec for since the 60s. And he's not been back since 29th. Fall 2019. Why? Because he doesn't go until the ice melts, so to speak. Have you had a trip yet? I went, I went to Austin last week. And I got some of my leadership team together. And it was interesting all being in a room again. And it was also interesting, because first time I met them in person, right? So I've had people reporting to me that I'm on the on video with like we're doing here, you know, 10 hours a day, and you meet him in person. And it's like, yeah, it's like, I've known you forever.
Neal Stanton:But there's a lot of that. I mean, my nephew works for a company. He's been in there m&a group, and he's never met anybody in the company. He's been remote since he started working for him. So you know, for me, I you know, me, you know who I am. I need to know, everybody's face, their family, their their wife's name, and I know everything about him. This this for me is killing me. So it's a it's time. I've just got my first trip. We're booking the Minnesota. But, you know, for conference coming up and I need to get out. I need to be on the road.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, you know, it's interesting for like, the first eight months and look at Okay, if I ever get on a plane again, and then I'm like, huh, yeah, maybe once in a while. And like yesterday, somebody called and said, Can you be in Orange County at this time? Yeah. Okay. Can I fly early? Can we get there soon? Right? Yeah. Yeah, I
Neal Stanton:went to dinner last Saturday evening, we went in to see my son. He lives in New York. So we went out there. And I felt like I was in a different country. I mean, the streets were packed. There was people all over the place. The restaurants were all I mean, it was just, I wasn't ready for it. As much as I thought I'm ready. Like, I've not been locked in the house. I'm not a recluse. But I was
Unknown:not ready.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, but but in a way you are because I think you what, you may have gone through what I did, which was I was somewhere for 30 years. And then suddenly, I was in a green room. seven days a week, the gym was closed, yoga was closed. Right. And then I had was working on projects, right couldn't be out in public. And because of the nature what they did, I couldn't even take the risk if I wanted to, ethically and so when you go back out, it's a little overwhelming.
Neal Stanton:Yeah, that's a very man. I mean, for me, it was huge. I mean, I don't you put me in a room of people. I'm a happy guy. I can talk and have a good time, but I'm looking around and not that amount. wasn't even that it was even uncomfortable. So it's not like it was afraid to be around the people or it just didn't seem right. It just seemed odd. Yeah. And I'm looking for the first flight. I can't wait to get back on and, you know, see how it feels to be sitting with people in an enclosed area.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, yeah. So I think flying in a mask is weird.
Neal Stanton:Well, I didn't do the train. I'll tell you that we're going to take the training this up from the path we drove in instead. But I don't know if I was ready for the train.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, I'm not sure I'm ever ready for the train. Now that's kind of that one in particular.
Neal Stanton:Do you remember my friend Steve that I used to work with in New York? So he was funny because the office in New York, he would never take the train. He took the car everywhere he went. And he said, Well, you were pre Madonna. You can't take a train. He said, No, I make enough money. I'll take a car everywhere. I prefer it to then being around all these people on the train. He used to say, I don't know. Who knows why is why never know. You kind of look back and say, was Steve on to something right? He was. He was never sick. But yeah, who knows? They get a little wacky.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, you know, it's funny that you look at that. The happiest place for me a long time was when I clear security and had in the airline club, because it felt normal. Yeah, right. And when I get in the back of a car with somebody else driving that doesn't know me, right? You know, I'm not I'm not dad in the backseat. They gave up the front seat. I'm just that guy in you can work you do everything. It feels completely natural again,
Neal Stanton:but it is natural. You don't realize how often you did I joke I took like and close my eyes and drive to Newark Airport. Yeah, I had that routine down where i mean i knew i can get to the airport get to the valet get onto the to the tram, be at my terminal. I could get there five minutes before boarding can walk on me heading down pat and never failed, actually wants to fail. And that was a long story. But I was constantly get to the airport. It was great. Now I'm like, Alright, what's it gonna be like? What's the you know, going through all the everything inside? I have to do a test or what has to happen? I don't even know. I'm not prepared. Yeah, kind of for me, I've lost all of that routine. Yeah, but you're right. To your point that was kind of scary routine is being in an airport terminal, being in a lounge and being in a car, right where you look. It is but you're used to it. It's not you don't think about it. And you know, you're going for some some purpose to see something or go see somebody to work on something interesting. It's, I miss it. I really miss it. Yeah.
Tim Kubiak:So if we could bring it back to our channel a little bit. You bootstrapped consultants. Right. So now every quick everybody's dream is I'm going to start this i'm going to add VC money and somebody bigs gonna buy me in 16 months or less. When you started that business, you had to do it very differently. Can you share what that was like?
Neal Stanton:Yeah, absolutely. So I probably should, again, going back to where it's not for the faint of heart. So I had a very good job making a lot of money. And I remember we just had our first kid bought our first house and I got a new truck. And I came home to tell my wife, hey, quitting my job. He said, What are you doing? I said, Look, and I gave that whole same theory 25% the way it works, and she'll give my wife some credit, she goes, look, you're gonna do what you're going to do. And I know you'll do it. Well,
Tim Kubiak:go ahead. And it worked.
Neal Stanton:I mean, to be fair, it was bootstrapped. You know, Frank and I, we put enough money in to make a couple of buys up front to get equipment that we needed for for sales. You know, we got lucky we ran into a couple of large opportunities. And I think I remember we bought it was an old Lehman's Lehman Brothers definity that they had if remember the old, scary for those out there that know what the affinity is or dating. Yeah, so we went out and bought all the equipment for I remember, it was $110,000. So you know, went to our bank and took cash out and we both split it and bought the system. We sold it for 210 in a week. And that's we said, Oh, this could be pretty good. This might really work out the way we thought I ended up selling that company, if you remember in about 14 months. So to your point of you know, building selling, it just happened to be the right time. You know, frankly, we were thinking about some different things. I ended up buying Frank out. And it was kind of odd because I literally signed the documents too close to seal the deal with Frank. And a week later, I sold the company to alphabet. And the reason for that was go run their division at a bigger company. Looking at it, it looked a better opportunity for my company to grow within a larger entity, all of those things. And that's something I can tell you after doing that, I learned shooed away that out, it's not always what you think, right? You know, is it are you better off raising capital and buildings, a lot of things I didn't know still being a little naive first company. Second company was different. So to your point that was also bootstrapped. And, you know, a little I would say different than even flagship, the first company because it took 18 months to start making some money. I mean, we we joke about I think I made $17,000 in the first year and how could that happen? But the reason for that was started in 2000. I literally started the company right after the top bomb. So it was a it had to cause us to make some changes in our strategy where we were looking to become a quick you know, loosen dealer at the time and all these other you know, Cisco and other platforms. No He was buying anyway. So for us, we changed our if you look at him consultant, we changed the whole meaning to consultative approach rather than coming in and looking what you could do to buy, how do we help you do more with what you have, especially trying to conserve cash? It worked. And if you remember me, you guys were, you know, integral in helping us with that, because I think you were at what was it? westcon at the time?
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, we just been acquired by Westpac. Yeah, so
Neal Stanton:it took us a bit of getting that rolling and getting it together. But, you know, we started to make some money. And we got to the same point. And, and one of the things kind of going back to how we had to be working with some of these PE firms, and some of the rest of it was I started looking at things like investments, and I will tell every entrepreneur at a talk about its family. It is I mean, the the people that there's no separating that don't fall in love with the business. Okay, it's business. And, and I could tell you a war stories from some of my friends that didn't sell their companies and end up costing them in some cases, hundreds of
Tim Kubiak:millions of dollars.
Neal Stanton:Yeah. But this was a case that I looked at it like an investment. And when I finally said, Look, I've been in this thing for nearly 10 years is this I had partners, that's good and bad, right? You know, this is less than you and I've talked about this often, you know, equity. Equity helps attract people, you don't get it back. Right. You don't feel equity into your seller organization and realize that he ever has what's getting the same piece. So and that's not a knock on anybody I've ever worked with. I mean, I had the best guys that I could have ever had partners in the company love them missile, I still talk to them for friends, I missed them as partners. But we took it as far as I thought to get what I wanted to make out of it. It started looking at it, I don't think I'm ever going to get it to that that never care, again, number. But we were able to work something out where it was enough to not have to ever worry again. So you kind of look at and say what was my options and even thinking back? If you look at the guys over carousel, right carousel just sold NW n? No, Jimmy and Jeff are great guys love them couldn't be any happier for him. Jeff did a lot of the same things that we could have done, what partners out but you know, he recapitalized on a lot of those things. And it's really, you know, the capital is what is probably changed for me more than anything over the years understanding how the money flows, and works within the business what you can do with it, you know, not that it was it was never important. But you know, bootstrap is a good thing to start if you got a good idea. Go raise capital, I'm telling you, and I'll actually use a company that I've worked with for a while as an example. And without going into all the names, but one company raised 16 million over 16 years. The other company that was the same startup with lesser product raised 151 sold for you know, 20 ish, one was worth a billion in market cap. Yep. Can you figure out who was who I mean, it'll money drives businesses, it helps you do all the things to drive revenue. At the end of the day for me, like you want to sound solid business, that's a fact. But you want to move quickly want to be aggressive? You want to be able to get the right people takes capital do that.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. So cash is king. Always.
Neal Stanton:We find it we say that every day. You know, it's even worse than when your investors are reminding you cash is king. Like we know, that's like, you know, we know we've been down that road actually was funny, there was a book and I tell every entrepreneur should read this. It's called the six month fix. It was written by and I got it somewhere behind me on the bookshelf. But the theory was a guy that goes in and does turnarounds. But there's a couple things in there that are absolutely practical to you know, everyday business and the one that has always stuck with me. He said, Look, if you can't take it to the store and buy bread with it or milk, it doesn't count. So I tell everybody, don't talk to me about your receivables. Don't talk to me about what we have coming. What do we have in cash? Where's the cash? Yes, that's what matters. It's what drives your business. Now shifting Tim Yeah, I know you know it. We've talked about this often right being in the world of distribution. In the margins, we're always coming from distribution, always talking those those razor thin margins, right?
Tim Kubiak:You're the only basis points and you're dealing with terms and you think people don't understand about distribution that aren't in your bank. Your product is great money.
Neal Stanton:Absolutely. It's definitely important, especially when your margins are thinner. I said even going back to no consultant, we're still not again, not a knock. We're selling Cisco, we're selling Avaya at Avaya. We're making 30 plus points. That's still Cisco. I was making single digits.
Tim Kubiak:You're making mid singles.
Neal Stanton:That's when a customer will be money for you know what, let's call it six months. I wasn't happy about it. Because you know, we didn't give everybody six month terms we know that. So we're waiting six months to get paid when it was a via You know, I'm not happy about it. But the cost the money versus everything else. I can kind of live with it. If I had you to get paid on Cisco. I'm upside down at that point. Yeah. So losing money here. Yeah, so that's probably the biggest lesson I keep coming back to it's, it's about cash, you know, have it, raise it, manage it. But don't be sloppy with it. Not that I ever work just don't have a lot of trouble.
Tim Kubiak:You know, the one thing I took away from jack, early on, right? I wish we had the money. We had the funding, he had amazing financial resources. And I wanted to scale faster. He's like, would you rather be bigger and less profitable or smaller and make far more money? Right. And that's that when you're in your mid 20s, trying to drive a business to $100 million? That's a tough conversation to understand. I'm like, No, no, we're gonna be $100 million. He's like, yeah, and you're gonna make x where you can be 80 million, and you'll make why it's not worth it. Now, you'd look at it, you go, Oh, I could have done it at 35. And it would have been amazing.
Neal Stanton:Yeah, I was just gonna say that's also there's, there's a couple theories on that, too, is, you know, right. You could say, well, I can be really profitable in a lower number and run it. But that's, again, that's the decision early on, do you want to run it forever? And other people, it's because because think about if you're building it, they're running forever, you're gonna run it forever. And it's, it's like almost self fulfilling. But there's also the theory that says, you know, how much revenue Can we buy? How hard is the company? And what's the market for Acquisition? That's the multiple, exactly, because that's the other area right now. Especially now with money, there's a lot of money out there, you'll talk about COVID, a lot of money sat on the sidelines for a long time. I mean, you see, everybody's talking about spax. And the other things that are out there, right now there is a buyer for just about everything. Now, it may not be the terms you want, or it may be more than you ever thought. But you know, you have to kind of factor that into its, and again, that's that's the fun part. I think that's you know, where we live, and I enjoy that I really, to me, that's the way I mentioned before all those different stages, they all have different, what's called benefits to it. You know, when you start talking on stage, I mean, look, getting involved in the m&a side, I love it, I get I absolutely love it,
Tim Kubiak:that that we're sick, we think due diligence is fun.
Neal Stanton:You know what, it's a I could tell it for a different conversation, we can go through the stories of that. But you know, there's been a couple because you know, when to play the game too. And you know, when you get towards the end, it's, yeah, you don't want to jeopardize the opportunity, but it's also an opportunity to pull in another 510 points, you're gonna do what you need to do to make that happen. Right. And you know, you It's all part of the game. Yeah, it's a I would you put it, there's two people said at the end of the table, one is to get the most for the company, your goal is to pay as least as they can, you're gonna have to figure out a way to, you know, kind of slot it to you, or whichever side of the table you're
Tim Kubiak:at. Yeah. And no matter which end you're at, you got to not be afraid to walk, you got to be able to walk, otherwise you lose it. Nope. I
Neal Stanton:mean, look, we've had it happen, right? We walked in a few deals a consultant, and you know, we had opportunities and offers that look good. We ultimately walk away from what might have been better, possibly. But there were a lot of things that we factored into it and you made decisions that were best at that time for the organization. And like I said, the best choice for us may have been just to raise cap. I mean, you know, we had a great company. But at the same time, you know, using all the Where do I want to be in 510 years? You know what? You can't it's hard to it's always easy to look back. It's always easy to do what he called that Monday, Monday morning quarterback, but that we made a great decision. Everybody's ended up doing really well. The partners, the company, the people. Yeah, it really was. I think it's just good for everybody all the way around.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. Yeah. So final question. They one thing What was your biggest success?
Unknown:Hmm.
Neal Stanton:He told me business wise or personal.
Tim Kubiak:You could do either, but I'm thinking business but personal. And certainly,
Neal Stanton:my kids. I mean, look, one of the things that having a father that likes to tinker and entrepreneurial and starts things you're constantly in the rear. Right? So you're always talking about my son ended up ba going into the banking world, loves it loves finance, loves the deals, right? That's where he wants to be. My daughter, Sally wants to follow in my footsteps. So I say brilliant, by the way. And you've you've met my daughter, but you know, I actually was talking to somebody about her today and said, Well, what is she like, you know, I mean, she was a college athlete. She's, you know, an aggressive kid. I said, She's me with discipline. at her age, she was me with discipline. I said, I still thought I knew more than everybody in the world and I was gonna do it my way and all the rest of that. So that kind of tended more to the entrepreneurial side right had to be my way. You know, Ollie is somebody that fits in you know, Nick, he's like I said, he far surpassed what I could have done because he he had a plan of work this plan but I like to think that myself my wife had a lot to do with Hey, do this don't do that. But make the mistake right. We talked about earlier make a mistake learn it's a he was really good at that too. So yeah, I'm proud of both of them. That's it. That's probably it that out of all the the mania of all these years. I am have, you know two really solid? Yeah, two grandkids. I'm
Unknown:happy about it.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah. And it's funny, because anally, I haven't talked to Nick in recent years. I can see both you and your wife right there in the conversation. Oh, thank
Neal Stanton:God. She looks like my wife.
Tim Kubiak:I was gonna bring that up. But yeah, I agree.
Neal Stanton:She does, I guess good and bad. She has my temperament. sodas, Nick looked at both sore losers. I'm going to tell you that right now. They're, they don't like to lose. They really are. They're not built for it. But actually funny thing. I'm just going over kind of wrapping up. But you and I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, some of the psychological stuff. And I'm like, 53 years old now. And sadly, I just learned this about myself and doing some reading and looking at things that will always draw drove me and I never really thought about it was not so much the when. I mean, look, I love the wind. But I hate to lose more than I like the wind. And I said How was that? I never would have thought that would been humanly possible. I started really diving in it and thinking about it. And it's true. I losing. I just, I still don't deal well with it. 53 I hate it. And it could be this. It could be a deal for five bucks. And I'm just as mad as it was a million dollar deal. And people say oh, it can't be Oh, no. Yeah, it is it. Yeah, I'm not built for that. I'm just not
Tim Kubiak:so true. Right and you just can't change it. That's just how we are you are and I know what I'm like I don't play games at home. I don't play board games with the family. Because I get I become that person.
Neal Stanton:Tim you talked about Nick right we stole my my wife tells a story on my what's what's the game I can't remember it now with you drop the tiles into the board and connect for Connect for folks to fiber Connect for so I used to destroy myself. Not because I had any no desire. He's a little kid. He was 5456 I had when I had to I couldn't let him win. But the day he beat me. I remember I saw it before he did. And I saw that little head come up on the other side of board and the eyes went wide. That's this one the air. He was running around a house screaming and my wife, Rachel, what what is that ago? He beat me now. I have to admit I was full of pride and want to smash the board at the same time. Yeah, just it's funny, but it can't look the both like that. It took them all the way through. Like my daughter doesn't like to play games with me because of that. Yeah,
Tim Kubiak:yeah. It's why I don't play. Right. Yeah. You get to know your limits. And it's like, yeah, I can either be dad or I can be me. I probably can't be both. So
Neal Stanton:like I said, Well, your kid I haven't seen Abby in a long time. But Courtney I've spoken with Courtney Xu.
Unknown:She's got a lot of Kelly but
Tim Kubiak:Abby's actually as much or more me with sort of the directness. Courtney has Kelsall. Right, Abby, Abby's kind of roofless young me.
Neal Stanton:That's not a bad thing. Look at this this day and age. It's a good thing. You're gonna have some drive.
Tim Kubiak:Yeah, you do. Neil, thanks for being here.
Neal Stanton:No, thanks for having me. But it was really fun. Love to do it again.
Tim Kubiak:Absolutely.